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HörPunkt: Mann Macht Frau «Die Frauenbewegung in Schweden ist ein totales Desaster»

Ist Schweden in Sachen Gender wirklich so fortschrittlich? Wird in Indien nach den Protesten die Gewalt gegen Frauen nun weniger? Acht Männer und Frauen aus allen Erdteilen haben über die Rollen der Geschlechter in ihren Ländern erzählt. Ihre Antworten waren unerwartet, ernüchternd und verblüffend.

Ein Zeichnung von einer Frau und einem Mann im 50er Jahre-Stil.
Legende: SRF

«The gender movement in Sweden is really a disaster», «In Kenya, our culture doesn't allow divorce, unless it's an extreme case», «Westerners cannot expect India to change in 20 years what the Europeans and the US took 200 years to change», «In Japan, there is a women's movement, but the media dilutes that. It is highly censored, because media is controlled by men.»

Einen Tag lang wurde beim HörPunkt «Mann Macht Frau» auf SRF 2 Kultur über das (Macht-) Verhältnis von Mann und Frau diskutiert. Wir haben acht Männer und Frauen aus Japan, Indien, Kenia, Libanon, Schweden und Argentinien über die Rollen von Mann und Frau in ihrer Gesellschaft ausgefragt. Die Antworten waren manchmal eine Bestätigung des Klischees, manchmal völlig überraschend.

Hier können Sie alle Antworten zu unseren Fragen nachlesen. Da die Gespräche als Chat geführt wurden, sind die Antworten auf Englisch. Wir bitten um Verständnis für Grammatik- und Orthografiefehler.

Wo und wie finden sich bei Euch Partner?
Celica (w.), Japan: There were marriage interview things in my parents or grand parents age, but not anymore. Most women and men meet, I suppose, in the office.There are plenty of men and women who can't find their partner, so now there are agencies to support finding others.
Yusuke (m.), Japan: It is done through parties. Organized by work colleagues or friends. Nowadays there are agencies specializing in matching and dating. It’s a big business Iike motorcycle sales.

Nehha (w.), Indien: Many youngsters I know marry the way they would like to. However, arranged marriages are usual too. Be it a love marriage or an arranged, they have one thing in common: The families are very involved. It‘s almost like one marries a family, too!

Rustam (m.), Indien: In many places parents do arrange marriage, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. I don't count it being a negative at all,  it‘s a matter of preference. What is bad are things like marital rape, dowry, caste system, gang rape etc.

George (m.), Kenia: Normally, relationship starts at a younger stage when boys and girls are in High School or Universities, and sometimes when they meet in the disco clubs... or family functions. But in our African traditional societies, your parents are the ones to get a wife for you... pay dowry and marry the lady!

Farah (w.), Libanon: The topic could get very wide and it depends on which countries we are discussing in the Arab world, but in each country you can find both, people dating and people waiting for arranged marriage to occur. Dating is more popular in Lebanon, Egypt and Tunisia but arranged marriage still is the biggest share of how couples meet. So I wouldn't consider dating as a ritual. Couples usually meet at College or at Work places. For arranged marriages, the family of a man usually looks for a suitable girl, then the families get introduced. Men and women meet at college as they go to classes, they wouldn't ask for a permission for that. Many choose to keep the news away from the family, especially males in the family like fathers and brothers. Sisters and mothers sometimes are safe to share these info with. But still, there is a minority which is so open with both parents and there is another group which cannot say a word to any member of the family.

Anne Herrberg (w.), Argentinien: Über Bekannte, in Clubs, auf der Arbeit – wie bei uns in der Schweiz auch. Früher spielten dabei sicherlich die Eltern eine grosse Rolle, da konnte sehr wohl der Vater ein Mitspracherecht haben, welcher Mann für die Tochter wohl der richtige wäre. Das ist heute aber nicht mehr so, zumindest nicht in Metropolen wie Buenos Aires.

Wer macht den Heiratsantrag?
Celica (w.), Japan: Normally men. I guess there's an idea that women shoudn't do that... but anyway I've heared there's an issue that young people choose to not marry. I don't really know why, but to enjoy their lives by themselves, or just can't find best partner. And there are tendencies to marry later: Many of my friends who are around 30 are not married yet.

George (m.), Kenia: The man. This happens in most cases, actually in all our cultures in Kenya.

Anne Herrberg (w.), Argentinien: Der  Mann muss den Antrag machen. Keine Frage. Das kann ganz schön anstrengend für den Mann sein, die argentinische Frau erwartet nämlich Kreativität und viel Romantik. Argentiniens Gesellschaft ist davon geprägt, das merkt man in vielerlei Hinsicht. Hier putzen sich die Frauen auch extrem heraus, das gehört dazu und fängt schon bei den kleinen Mädchen an. Ich möchte dazu mal einen Spruch zitieren, den ich hier gehört habe: Woran erkennt der Reisende, dass er sich in der Schweiz befände? Das wäre da, wo die Kühe hübscher sind als die Frauen. Auch auf der Arbeit ziehen sich Frauen teils sehr hübsch und sexy an, das ist normal. Was dazu gehört: Piropos = argentinisch für Anmachsprüche.
Ist es üblich, dass eine verheiratete Frau arbeitet?

Yusuke (m.), Japan: Yes, but in a non-managerial area it is common for both parents to work.

Celica (w.), Japan: There are mothers who do work while they raise their kids, but it's pretty hard.  And it's kind of difficult to take vacation in Japanese office, so I guess women quit work when they get pregnant or in middle/later of their pregnancy. 

Nehha (w.), (Indien): In Delhi, Bombay, Chennai, Calcutta and many big cities, yes. But in poor families women have to support their household. In richer families women can choose to work if they want… Since it is largely patriarchal, it depends upon the men in the household if they let their women work.

George (m.), Kenia: Yes, but men are more superior than women. Women must stay at home and take care of the children and the household. It's not common to find both men and women are working together, this can bring a lot of conflict in the house.

Farah (w.), Libanon: Yes, many married women work, it depends on the countries again. This happening the least in Saudi Arabia, but women in the major cities usually work after finishing college or high education whether single or married. Another group stops working upon having children. The society has changed, grand parents play a huge role during day times. The Arab society is young, so grandparents could be in their 40s or 50s.

Mattias (m.), Schweden:  Most men will take at least a few months of parental leave after a child is born, though about 2/3 is still taken by women. Everyone is entitled to 18 months of parental leave, split between the parents, and useable in portions as you wish until the child is 8. There is a legislation coming that some months have to be used by either sex, which is basically to force all fathers to take at least some part of the parental leave. That law could help guys like myself to be able to tell my boss «Well, I really have to». No law = many employers will say, let the mother do.

You get 80% of your salary while on leave, and since men earn more (which we still do), you loose less by having the women stay at home. Almost all kids go to kindergarden, and there's also «night kindergardens» in case you work odd hours. Kindergarden is basically free – to ensure people can work.

Anne Herrberg (w.), Argentinien: Ja, ich kenne sehr viele. Auch mit zwei oder drei Kindern. Frauen, die in der argentinischen Gesellschaft übrigens in der Überzahl sind (1 Million mehr Frauen als Männer), tragen zum Lebensunterhalt bei und sind auch sozial sehr engagiert, das hat in den letzten Jahren nochmal zugenommen.

Wie «leicht» kann man sich scheiden lassen? Wer zahlt? Wer bekommt die Kinder nach einer Scheidung?

Yusuke (m.), Japan: In some cases, the discussion becomes awfully complicated because of the slow pace of the judiciary. And lawyers are very expensive like in many other countries. And here in Japan, too. In most cases men have to pay in the end. Because that is the way it is.

George (m.), Kenia: Divorce?! Normally is not common to a married couples, either through traditional marriage or Christian marriage. This only exist in the Muslim communities in Kenya. Divorce is not common because all the families from both sides are tied together with dowry and marriage agreement. And our culture doesn't allow that, unless it's an extreme case. Maybe one of the parents is moving out with another woman, or man vice versa, and not taking care of the children.

Farah (w.), Libanon: Divorce is becoming more frequent. We have high rates of divorce, but especially after early marriages. It is very hard to get remarried after a divorce for a woman, and if she has children, she will think 100 times before getting married again because after a certain age her childern will be claimed by her husband or his family by law.

The man pays money for his children, the woman can keep the children if she stays unmarried. So if she get‘s remarried - she loses her children sooner or later, unless the divorced couple are on good terms. Some countries have laws that allows the grandmother to keep the children (the mother's mom) and some countries strictly give custody to the man's family.

Traditionelle Rollenbilder vom Mann, der arbeitet und der Frau, die zu Hause bleibt, stossen in unserer Gesellschaft zunehmend auf Ablehnung. Kannst Du auch einen Rollenwechsel der Geschlechter in Deinem Land feststellen? Würdest Du Dir das wünschen?

Yusuke (m.), Japan: It is still a very male-dominated society, this means women do the household things.

Rustam (m.), Indien: India has a number of Goddesses: We pray to the woman god Durga for power. She is supposed to be the paragon of power and strenght traditionally. But unfortunately, this has got eroded somewhere along the way and in most parts of the country the role of the women has been segregated to a second class citizen.

It's actually a very complicated thing since we still have women being burned alive for dowry and the government is still not recognizing marital rape as a crime on one hand, but we are also a country which has had a women Prime Minster, a women President, a women Foreign Minister etc. A statistic that even US or EU countries cannot boast of!

But change will happen and it is happening. Its a generational change. Westerners cannot expect India to change in 20 years what the europeans and US took 200 years to change.

Nehha (w.), Indien: Our society is patriarchal. Many women don't control purse strings or earn so they have to be submissive. That is the economical aspect. Then there is the demographic aspect of women being far fewer than men, so any woman is a object. Then there is the historical aspect where a woman is always supposed to be ruled by her father, then husband and then son. In Sanskrit, a quiet submissive woman is known as «sati savitri» or a «pativratta», always sacrificing herself for the benefit of her male members.

For example if a poor family has a son and a daughter they will only pay for the son's education, since the woman anyways marries and goes away. The son is supposed to take care of the parents in old age, so investments are always for sons.

Times are changing in the cities, though. Because of economic slowdowns it has become imperative for both women and men to work to support a household. But I fear: If the government does not do something to stop female foeticide and female infanticide, then we are done for…

George (m.), Kenia: Modern families don't exist in Kenya. As I had already told you men are superior to women, and it's hard to find men taking care of the children and women going to work. Though time is changing and culture is going down, men and women are now sharing the responsibilities together.

Farah (w.), Libanon: Mothers of the wife or husband usually take care of the children while the mother is at work, until they reach nursery age. But some husbands are learning how to cooperate at home. I would say housekeeping, grocery shopping, some cleaning, but cooking is least performed by men.

Matthias Goldmann (m.), Schweden: I believe that when you start scraping at the surface, you will see that many roles are still traditional. And sometimes women really seem to lose out: Ok, they are working and have a career but they still do most of the household chores. So they work double. On the other hand, when it comes to parental leave and taking care of the kids, I am proud to say that we are comparatively equal.

Anne Herrberg (w.), Argentinien: In kleinen Dörfern auf der Provinz ist der Machismo sehr viel weiter ausgeprägt, Frauen haben dort ehr viel weniger Rechte und ihnen wird weniger Respekt entgegen gebracht als in der Stadt. Die Beschäftigung unter Frauen hat zwar zugenommen, trotzdem sind sie diejenigen, die die schlechter bezahlten Jobs machen und sich nebenher noch um Haushalt und Kinder kümmern.

Wer ist für die Erziehung der Kinder zuständig?

Celica (w.), Japan: Nowadays it's generally the women's job, I guess. But I hear Japanese word «Ikumen» (men who do child-caring) is in vogue in Japan, and there are some classes for men or both parents, not only mother but also the father, to teach how to take care of their children.

Yusuke (m.), Japan: It’s a woman's job. Or often considered to be the school's job nowadays.

Nehha (w.), Indien: Grandparents and parents. Because of cheap labour one can have many maids or extra helping hands. If the parents are both working (which is the case in big cities) then the help at home raises the children or grandparents do.

Werden Buben anders erzogen als Mädchen? Wenn Ja, wie?

George (m.), Kenia: Yes, most of the boys are given priorities than girls – in all that they need. They are more preferred, since they are regarded as the ones who will take over the family matters incase the father is dead. Girls get married and leave their families to join other families.

Farah (w.), Libanon: In many cases yes and even if the parents treat them equally, the society might not which changes them and their gender roles. In many cases boys get more freedom of movement and speech. The laws of some countries grant men the guardianship role for example, in Saudi Arabia, if the father dies, a 16 years old boy will be the guardian of his mother and sisters.

Mattias (m.), Schweden: I guess it is the same here as everywhere: blue for boys, pink for girls. Though the other week there was a big PR success for a toy's company that had put girls behind toy tractors and boys with barbies. And if you live in some areas of Stockholm (SoFo), it is very «comme il faut» to dress your boy in dresses and skirts – to show just how open minded you are. Now, if that same kid goes to Norrland (the north of Sweden) it will have problems...

Wer ist das Oberhaupt der Familie?

George (m.), Kenia: The man is supposed to make all the important decisions, starting from the wife and to the children too.

Anne Herrberg (w.), Argentinien: Nach Aussen hin hat der Mann die Hosen an, daheim aber regiert eher die Frau, «la Mama».

Was passiert wenn eine Mann/Frau eine Nebenbeziehung hat? Gibt es Unterschiede in der Bewertung?

Yusuke (m.), Japan: When it does come out to the open women tend to carry bigger social peer pressure than men.

George (m.), Kenia: If a married man has an affair, is not taken that seriously because our African traditional can allow one man to marry many wives, but not the case to women. If women have affairs outside marriage, this is not allowed. But the traditions are now going down with time and changes of life.

Farah (w.), Libanon: There is huge discrimination in this issue which makes it less frequent for married women to have affairs. If a married man gets in an affair, and his wife knows there is a trend to stay silent about it. Even if she speaks up and tries to get her right back, she's advised to become patient and understand that he is a 'man' and this is a common thing so if she wants to keep her family together SHE should do all her effort to gain him back – as if it's her problem.

Gibt es eine aktive Frauenbewegung in Deinem Land?

Yusuke (m.), Japan: A grass-root movement, yes. But the media dilutes that. It is highly censored, because media is controlled by men.

Nehha (w.), Indien: There is and there isn't… After this gang rape so many women are protesting, but nothing really comes out of it. In cities, we are more free to do what we like, to wear what we like and go where we want. But the truth is, since the sex ratio is so skewed in favour of men even in cities, men are frustrated and look at women as objects. Sex is such a taboo to be spoken about and you could get arrested for public display of affection. However, we are way way way better off than many countries.

George (m.), Kenia: Yes, we have a lot of women movements, which take cares of their rights, and defend them alot. This starts from the girls to the adult women. We have also Ministry of Justice and Gender, which takes care of children, girls and women rights too.

Farah (w.), Libanon: We don't have a wide strong feminist movement. We had before and some are trying to rise up again but they lack organization and unity some new movements are trying to refresh the atmosphere and remind women that their rights are not complete. but with the current situation in the Arab world and the Arab spring, women's issues are being pushed down on the priorities list giving way to throwing «regimes». Even revolutionaries forget that women are their partners in the revolution and that dictatorship and patriarchy are faces of the same coin.

Mattias (m.), Schweden:  The gender movement is really a disaster. For instance,  as a man I feel excluded from a fight I would love to be included in. Plus: A successful women's movement could stop society in five minutes,  yet they achieve nothing. Perhaps because being a woman doesn't create a «we-feeling». Being a white +50 male seems obviously to do just that: Men form a club where others have no access.

Anne Herrberg (w.), Argentinien: Ja, es gibt eine aktive und sehr pluralistische Frauenbewegung im Land. Die bekannteste Frauenbewegung  sind die Mütter von der Plaza de Mayo. Mütter, die während der Diktatur in den 70er Jahren damit begonnen haben, auf der Plaza de Mayo zu demonstrieren und für ihre verschwundenen Kinder einzustehen. Diese Organisation ist heute zudem in vielen Punkten aktiv und kämpft für soziale und Gender-Gerechtigkeit.

Daneben gibt es eine starke Bewegung, die für einen der wichtigsten Punkte der Gleichberechtigung kämpft: die legale Abtreibung. Denn obwohl Argentinien sehr fortschrittlich ist, was Bürgerrechte angeht, ist Abtreibung hier illegal. Man schätzt dass rund 100 Frauen pro Jahr an den Folgen einer illegalen Abtreibung sterben.

Argentinien ist wie alle Länder Lateinamerikas stark katholisch geprägt. Der Widerstnd gegen die Reform wird immer wieder torpediert, selbst Argentiniens Präsidentin Cristina Fernandez de hat sich bisher noch nicht getraut, das Thema ernsthaft zu diskutieren. Es gibt allerdings mittlerweile Einschränkungen: Bei Fällen, in denen die Frau durch Vergewaltigung schwanger wurde oder eine Geburt schwere gesundheitliche Folgen bergen würde, ist die Abtreibung erlaubt.

Wie gut sind Frauen in die Politik und Wirtschaft eingebunden?

Yusuke (m.), Japan: Very few. It’s a single percentage point – but mostly non-managerial work. Also, this discussion has been brushed aside because of the economic recession for the last 20 years. I hope the discussion about a better involvement of women in economy and politics will rise again. Because men have been paralyzed and are worn out because of the long drawn recession.

George (m.), Kenia: In Kenyan politics, men are more represented than women, with the obvious reasons that I have given you. But now the constitution allows them to contest and be the majority in the parliament and other political leadership. I think this is good and a fair deal to everyone, women also have rights and should be given chances in the society and a in the country too. They will of course have important roles and functions to play in future...very important! Women are becoming more powerful in Kenya, I tell you! And the law is always on their side, too!

Farah (w.), Libanon: In politics, fair quotas are not established in many Arab countries for representation in the Parilament or Government. There are women's unions and there are many NGOs that try to promote and empower women. Actually, the media should play a greater role in this respect. And if I say women's issues, I'm talking about basic issues like jobs and political paticipation are usually ignored. The media chooses what is attractive, and women's issues are not that attractive. I believe it is the time for women in the Arab world to rise and fight for their rights, especially as their constitutions are being re-written or amended. It's their precious opportunity that they cannot let go.

Nehha (w.), Indien: This is very interesting: On the face of it women are empowered, our ex-President and Prime Minister were women, our leader of the ruling party is a woman, the speaker of the Parliament is a woman. But at the ground level, it is still very patriarchal. The women in politics are all dynastic women.

Mattias (m.), Schweden:  There is no quota in legislation, but most parties have. In parliament and almost all local assembiles it would be within 40-60 for either sex. So politics is ok gender wise; business is not!!! Almost all CEOs are men, and most boards are 100% men, which is bad for equality and bad for business. Why choose voluntarily to NOT have 51% of the population represented? There are proposals for legislation but it won‘t happen any time soon. In Sweden it's still the men who have the power. But perhaps that's a generational thing that's changing. I believe my generation is more equal than my parents and the next one more than mine. We have most of the economic framework for equality in place, but attitudes change sloooooooowly.

Ist häusliche Gewalt ein Thema bei Euch?

Rustam (m.), Indien: The violence against women is mostly because of the lack of education or bad education. It‘s also because while some parts of the country has got rich like crazy over the past few years others are unsatisfied and angry. Male anger is comming out as violence.

The worst is that our education system does not sensitize young boys to this issue at all. Families and schools need to treat girls as equals and then the men will start thinking that way too. In the indian family, the boy gets preference to be sent to school first, the women is supposed to work at home. Even television shows a 'good' woman as one who works hard at home and keeps the husband happy while he works outside. In most poor rural families, the girls eat after the boys (so mostly the get leftovers) and if there is not much money, they are forced to drop out of school so that the boy can continue. This is where the problem starts: Subconsciously it get‘s registered in the boy's head that he is superior.

Anne Herrberg (w.), Argentinien: Es ist ein grosses Thema. Auch in der Hinsicht gibt es sehr besorgniserregende Entwicklungen im nach Aussen hin so fortschrittlichen Argentinien. Im letzten Jahr meldeten Frauenorganisationen und Frauenhäuser: Alle 31 Stunden geschieht in Argentinien ein Frauenmord. Sechs von zehn Frauen wurden dabei von Männern aus ihrem engsten Umfeld ermordet. Hier fehlt es aber an öffentlichem Bewusstsein und in diesem Zusammenhang auch an der wirksamen Verfolgung der Taten durch die Justiz.

Allerdings gab es in Argentinien in diesem Zusammenhang eine sehr interessante und erfolgreiche Serie im TV: Mujeres Asesinas - Frauen, die zu Mörderinnen werden. Thematisiert wurden Fälle, die auf wahren Begebenheiten beruhen und in denen Frauen so lange malträtiert wurden und keine Hilfe erfahren haben, dass sie dann – sozusagen als letztes Mittel der Notwehr – ihre Männer selbst gewaltsam angingen. Diese Serie war enorm erfolgreich und wurde begleitet von telefonischen Hilfe-Hotlines.

Wie sicher sind Frauen vor Vergewaltigung? Wie reagiert in aller Regel die Justiz auf Vergewaltigung?

Nehha (w.), Indien: It’s the mindset is what has to change. Unless men are sensitized from childhood and some ruthless punishment not institutionalized for rape, women will continue to be assaulted.

George (m.), Kenia: Yes, this happens in the slums areas and in the countryside, where people are not more educated and highlighted about womens rights. Women are not safe at all. There are alot of rape cases, especially in the slums areas where there is not proper laws. Since people live in high poverty level and the rate of crimes are high too.

Farah (w.), Libanon: Depends on the country. There are no clear laws against harassment but there are against rape. However, in Morocco, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon there is a law that aquits the rapist from punishment if he marries his victim! harassment is most common in Egypt. As you follow the news, mob assaults and rape incidents are being used to humiliate women and men together to stop them from marching and protesting. Also sexual harassment is a daily event in public transportation, streets, schools and workplaces.

Nehha aus Neu-Dehli, Indien

Nehha aus Neu-Dehli, Indien

Nehha ist professionelle Tänzerin und Kulturschaffende. Sie gehört zum «Indian Council For Cultural Relations» und hat einen Master in International Relations und Politikwissenschaften. In ihrer Freizeit kümmert sie sich am liebsten um ihre drei Hunde.

Celica aus Kawasaki, Japan

Celica aus Kawasaki, Japan

Die Japanerin Celica (30) ist selbstständige Grafikerin aus Kawasaki. Sie ist seit drei Jahren mit ihrer Jugendliebe verheiratet. Kinder sind in naher Zukunft geplant.

Yusuke aus Kumamoto, Japan

Yusuke aus Kumamoto, Japan

Yusuke wuchs in Tokyo und Grossbritannien auf. Er arbeitete unter anderem in der Werbung und im Event-Managing-Bereich. Er ist Vater eines 12jährigen Jungen.

Mattias aus Stockholm

Mattias (40) arbeitet bei dem «grünen» Autoverband «Gröna Bilister». Er wohnt in Stockholm, ist verheiratet und hat eine 11jährige Tochter.

George aus Nairobi, Kenia

George aus Nairobi, Kenia

George (40) aus Nairobi studierte Sozialkunde und arbeitete in verschiedenen, sozialen Projekten. Aktuell leitet er sein eigenes Tourismus-Unternehmen in Kenia. Er ist verheiratet und hat eine 14jährige Tochter. 

Rustam aus Dehli, Indien

Rustam aus Dehli, Indien

Rustam aus Neu-Dehli ist Unternehmer, der sich in sozialen und nachhaltigen Projekten engagiert. Er studierte Elektrotechnik in Kalifornien und arbeitete unter anderem in Singapur und Basel. Seine Hobbys sind Theater und Reisen.

Farah aus Beirut, Libanon

Farah aus Beirut, Libanon

Farah ist in Palästina geboren und ist selbstständige Übersetzerin und Journalistin. Sie ist Mitgründerin der Webseite «The uprising of the women in the Arab World».

Anne aus Buenos Aires

Anne aus Buenos Aires

Anne (32) ist Korrespondentin in Buenos Aires. Seit sie 2005 zum ersten Mal nach Buenos Aires kam, liessen Argentinien und Südamerika sie nicht mehr los. Seit knapp zwei Jahren lebt und arbeitet die Journalistin am Rio de la Plata, gemeinsam mit ihrem argentinischen Freund. 

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